perfect sines can create sound that only perfect sines can create,
musical and non-musical.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Monroe Eskew < monroe.eskew@... > wrote:
> I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> M15 or ZO If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
>
> I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> maybe scientific applications instead Or are you just a
> perfectionist (It's OK if you are.)
>
> Monroe
>
> On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>
>> I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
>> VCO that can produce a sine
>> wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
>> me this a very useful
>> feature.
>>
>> But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
>> expect everyone to
>> either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
>> their inability to hear
>> harmonic distortion.
>>
>> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , "madrayken" <dene.carter@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
>> >
>> > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
>> > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
>> > mono-synth
>> >
>> > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
>> mod
>> > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
>> > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
>> > waves, not because someone told me so.
>> >
>> > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
>> > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
>> > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
>> > good to my ears.
>> > I am now happy.
>> >
>> > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
>> > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
>> care
>> > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
>> > the work-arounds.
>> >
>> > Can't we all move on or play nice
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > So what is the purpose of this Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
>> > > impossible to distinguish aurally And can't you filter out any
>> > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF
>> > >
>> > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
>> > > > rounded corners). So it's a
>> > > > sine for only part of its range.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
>> sounds
>> > > > best, but who's sine
>> > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
>> fundamental
>> > > > only).
>> > > >
>> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , Bakis Sirros
>> > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
>> also have
>> > > > a very good sinewave.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
>> (i use
>> > > > them all the time!) and the
>> > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
>> > > > > 1 group owner
>> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
>> > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
>> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
>> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
>> > > > > Athens - Greece
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
>> > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> waveform
>> > > > quality
>> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
>> > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
>> > > > outputs. In summary here
>> > > > > are the replies I got:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
>> peaks
>> > > > as "Sine". Even if
>> > > > you
>> > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
>> looking
>> > > > shape is a close
>> > > > enough
>> > > > > to be called a Sine.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
>> > > > remain imprecise because
>> > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
>> with no
>> > > > added harmonics in our
>> > > > > system because that would make it digital.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
>> disapproval of
>> > > > this discussion. Even
>> > > > > banning members was suggested!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
>> Fourier),
>> > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
>> wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Why ban people I found the debate lively at first,
>> although it
>> > > > later turned somewhat
>> > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I
>> think
>> > > > matters should rest
>> > > > > there.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > York
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
>> > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
>> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
>> > > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> waveform
>> > > > quality
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth the guy's a trainwreck,
>> > > > spoils
>> > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
>> presented
>> > > > as
>> > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
>> > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
>> Geist
>> > > > > > > 1 group owner
>> > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>> > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
>> > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
>> > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
>> > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
>> > > > > > > Athens - Greece
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>> wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> > > > waveform
>> > > > > > quality
>> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
>> or yahoo
>> > > > > > group
>> > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
>> even join
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
>> the vco
>> > > > in
>> > > > > > cents
>> > > > > > > and fractions of cents
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
>> > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php t=2158
>> > > > > > > > < http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php t=2158
>> >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
>> better
>> > > > > > traingles and
>> > > > > > > > sines
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks James,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
>> > > > > > waveshaper.
>> > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
>> 1v/oct
>> > > > > > signal
>> > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.
>> You
>> > > > don't
>> > > > > > want
>> > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
>> > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-
>> test.wav
>> > > > > > > > < http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
>> > ng-test.wav
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
>> > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
>> notes, that's
>> > > > > > how it
>> > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that
>> low
>> > > > notes
>> > > > > > also
>> > > > > > > > have small peaks)
>> > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
>> peaks means
>> > > > > > it's not
>> > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
>> > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
>> is how
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
>> using
>> > > > as a
>> > > > > > waveshaper.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
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>> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
>> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
>> Release
>> > > > Date:
>> > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
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