You could say that about any waveform, instrument, songbird, or
Christopher Walken.

On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Argitoth wrote:

> perfect sines can create sound that only perfect sines can create,
> musical and non-musical.
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Monroe Eskew
> < monroe.eskew@... > wrote:
> > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense
> to
> > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you
> mention
> > M15 or ZO If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> >
> > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> > maybe scientific applications instead Or are you just a
> > perfectionist (It's OK if you are.)
> >
> > Monroe
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> >
> >> I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> >> VCO that can produce a sine
> >> wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> >> me this a very useful
> >> feature.
> >>
> >> But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> >> expect everyone to
> >> either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> >> their inability to hear
> >> harmonic distortion.
> >>
> >> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , "madrayken" <dene.carter@...>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> >> >
> >> > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying
> about
> >> > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> >> > mono-synth
> >> >
> >> > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> >> mod
> >> > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other
> than
> >> > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than
> sine
> >> > waves, not because someone told me so.
> >> >
> >> > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> >> > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> >> > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced
> sounds
> >> > good to my ears.
> >> > I am now happy.
> >> >
> >> > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> >> > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> >> care
> >> > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love
> hearing
> >> > the work-arounds.
> >> >
> >> > Can't we all move on or play nice
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > So what is the purpose of this Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> >> > > impossible to distinguish aurally And can't you filter out any
> >> > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF
> >> > >
> >> > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square
> with
> >> > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> >> > > > sine for only part of its range.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> >> sounds
> >> > > > best, but who's sine
> >> > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> >> fundamental
> >> > > > only).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , Bakis Sirros
> >> > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
> >> also have
> >> > > > a very good sinewave.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> >> (i use
> >> > > > them all the time!) and the
> >> > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
> Geist
> >> > > > > 1 group owner
> >> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> >> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> >> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> >> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> >> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> >> > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> >> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> >> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> >> > > > > Athens - Greece
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> >> > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> >> waveform
> >> > > > quality
> >> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> >> > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted
> sine
> >> > > > outputs. In summary here
> >> > > > > are the replies I got:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> >> peaks
> >> > > > as "Sine". Even if
> >> > > > you
> >> > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> >> looking
> >> > > > shape is a close
> >> > > > enough
> >> > > > > to be called a Sine.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must
> always
> >> > > > remain imprecise because
> >> > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> >> with no
> >> > > > added harmonics in our
> >> > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> >> disapproval of
> >> > > > this discussion. Even
> >> > > > > banning members was suggested!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> >> Fourier),
> >> > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Why ban people I found the debate lively at first,
> >> although it
> >> > > > later turned somewhat
> >> > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply
> and I
> >> think
> >> > > > matters should rest
> >> > > > > there.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > York
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> >> > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> >> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> >> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> >> > > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> >> waveform
> >> > > > quality
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth the guy's a
> trainwreck,
> >> > > > spoils
> >> > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> >> presented
> >> > > > as
> >> > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> >> > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected /
> Memory
> >> Geist
> >> > > > > > > 1 group owner
> >> > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> >> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> >> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> >> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> >> > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> >> > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> >> > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> >> > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> >> > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: starting a modular -
> Z3000
> >> > > > waveform
> >> > > > > > quality
> >> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> >> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> >> or yahoo
> >> > > > > > group
> >> > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> >> even join
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> >> the vco
> >> > > > in
> >> > > > > > cents
> >> > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> >> > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php
> t=2158
> >> > > > > > > > < http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php
> t=2158
> >> >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> >> better
> >> > > > > > traingles and
> >> > > > > > > > sines
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter
> as a
> >> > > > > > waveshaper.
> >> > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> >> 1v/oct
> >> > > > > > signal
> >> > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an
> attenuator.
> >> You
> >> > > > don't
> >> > > > > > want
> >> > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> >> > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> ng-
> >> test.wav
> >> > > > > > > > < http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> >> > ng-test.wav
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> >> > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> >> notes, that's
> >> > > > > > how it
> >> > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is
> that
> >> low
> >> > > > notes
> >> > > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> >> > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> >> peaks means
> >> > > > > > it's not
> >> > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> >> > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> >> is how
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> >> using
> >> > > > as a
> >> > > > > > waveshaper.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> >> > > > --------- -
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
> >> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> >> Release
> >> > > > Date:
> >> > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> >> > > > > > > >
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>
> --
> www.elanhickler.com
>
>



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