Go on be naive.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:19 PM, laryn91 < caymus91@... > wrote:

> You must fall into this group:
>
>
> " I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> > designed sounds
> > using Additive Synthesis. "
>
> I and many others successfully use Additive techniques on our analog
> synthesizers every
> day. Just because YOU can't or don't know how, you shouldn't make pompus
> blanket
> statements like yours below.
>
> It only exposes your lack of depth in analog synthesis techniques ;-)
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and
> > dynamics
> > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
> > sine wave
> > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web
> > about Additive
> > Synthesis if you're interested."
> >
> >
> > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model natural
> > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
> thought
> > it was possible but failed in the end.
> > Why
> > They could not get the phases of the seperate sine building blocks
> correctly
> > lined up with analog oscillators.
> > I guess you could do with reading some of monsieur Fourier's theory.
> >
> > It wasn't until computers got significantly powerful enough that
> Fourier's
> > theories could be implemented fully.
> > And then still....
> >
> > I have nothing against additive synthesis and i understand your need for
> > true sine function oscillators for this.
> > But please don't act like additive synthesis is going to give you a good
> > imitation of an 'existing real life' sound..
> >
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Ernst
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:49 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> >
> > > By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> > > designed sounds
> > > using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component
> for
> > > these cool class
> > > of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in
> > > character and dynamics
> > > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or
> 4
> > > sine wave
> > > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the
> web
> > > about Additive
> > > Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic
> > > sounds with only
> > > subtractive synthesis.
> > >
> > > I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation
> source.
> > > The A-111
> > > rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if
> you
> > > want more fine
> > > and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!
> > >
> > > A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the
> fundamental
> > > and no
> > > overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but
> > > imprecision and
> > > sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with-rounded-peaks, it
> should
> > > not mislead
> > > customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A
> Sine
> > > means something
> > > very specific:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
> > >
> > > If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave
> out
> > > jack -
> > > would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> > > > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> > > > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> > > > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> > > > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> > > > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> > > > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> > > > M15 or ZO If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> > > > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> > > >
> > > > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> > > > maybe scientific applications instead Or are you just a
> > > > perfectionist (It's OK if you are.)
> > > >
> > > > Monroe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> > > > > VCO that can produce a sine
> > > > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> > > > > me this a very useful
> > > > > feature.
> > > > >
> > > > > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> > > > > expect everyone to
> > > > > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> > > > > their inability to hear
> > > > > harmonic distortion.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "madrayken" <dene.carter@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying
> about
> > > > > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > > > > mono-synth
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> > > > > mod
> > > > > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other
> than
> > > > > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than
> sine
> > > > > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > > > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > > > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced
> sounds
> > > > > > good to my ears.
> > > > > > I am now happy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > > > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> > > > > care
> > > > > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love
> hearing
> > > > > > the work-arounds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can't we all move on or play nice
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what is the purpose of this Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > > > > impossible to distinguish aurally And can't you filter out any
> > > > > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square
> with
> > > > > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> > > > > sounds
> > > > > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> > > > > fundamental
> > > > > > > > only).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In
> Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
> > > > > also have
> > > > > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> > > > > (i use
> > > > > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
> Geist
> > > > > > > > > 1 group owner
> > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > quality
> > > > > > > > > To:
> Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted
> sine
> > > > > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> > > > > peaks
> > > > > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> > > > > looking
> > > > > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must
> always
> > > > > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> > > > > with no
> > > > > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> > > > > disapproval of
> > > > > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> > > > > Fourier),
> > > > > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why ban people I found the debate lively at first,
> > > > > although it
> > > > > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and
> I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > York
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > quality
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth the guy's a
> trainwreck,
> > > > > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> > > > > presented
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected /
> Memory
> > > > > Geist
> > > > > > > > > > > 1 group owner
> > > > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: starting a modular -
> Z3000
> > > > > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > > > quality
> > > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> > > > > or yahoo
> > > > > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> > > > > even join
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> > > > > the vco
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
> php t=2158
> > > > > > > > > > > > < http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
> > > php t=2158
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > > > > sines
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as
> a
> > > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> > > > > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an
> attenuator.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> ng-
> > > > > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > > > > < http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > > > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> > > > > notes, that's
> > > > > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is
> that
> > > > > low
> > > > > > > > notes
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> > > > > peaks means
> > > > > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> > > > > is how
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> > > > > using
> > > > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > > > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> > > > > Release
> > > > > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
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