I'm not trying to be rude; I just don't see an upgrade of the Doepfer
oscillators to be necessary or worth it. I'm not against sine waves;
they're great. But there are a few things I don't understand. I'm
just curious...

1. Why doesn't a filter count as a "nonlinear wave shaper"
2. Why isn't using self oscillation on a filter such as the A121
sufficient for your purposes This produces a natural sine wave,
right The A121 has excellent keyboard tracking IMHO.
3. If additive synthesis is the game, why prefer analog over digital

Cheers,
Monroe

On Dec 2, 2008, at 5:10 PM, laryn91 wrote:

> No, it's NOT a filter at all. It a non-linear wave shaper.
>
> What I don't get is why are some so passionately *against* sine
> waves I must violating
> some unwritten analog commandment here but can't figure out what it
> is. After all, most
> vintage modular VCOs had clean sines - what's wrong with that
>
> All I asked was which VCO generated undistorted sines and got lots
> of rude replies and
> insults. My favorite is the very angry guy below who is pushing I
> get banned from this
> group! Yikes...
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't get it... If the upgrade just filters the triangle in a
> better
> > way, then an LPF should do the same work. If your real concern is
> > additive synthesis, then perhaps you should get the digital RS370,
> or
> > a computer program. Or perhaps use self-oscillation on a filter that
> > has good tracking
> >
> >
> > On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:13 PM, laryn91 wrote:
> >
> > > I wouldn't send mine back to Germany either.
> > >
> > > But I would buy upgrade boards and wire them in for all my Doepfer
> > > oscillators (110, 111,
> > > 145, etc.)
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com , Bakis Sirros
> > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ok, i could do that poll.
> > > > Dieter, any more specific details for the poll
> > > >
> > > > btw, in case there was a modified Sine circuit for the A111
> > > produced, i would be
> > > probably not bothered to send my 8 A111's back to doepfer to be
> > > 'converted' with the new
> > > sine design... it would be much trouble and time lost, for me...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > 1 group owner
> > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > Athens - Greece
> > > >
> > > > --- On Wed, 12/3/08, york luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: york luethje <ybl@>
> > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: Sine wave discussion - Poll
> > > suggestion
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 12:52 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Couldn't we just have a poll My suspicion is that the practical
> > > value of very good
> > > analogue sine waves will be high for only some. As Dieter
> posted, an
> > > earlier discussion
> > > then fizzled out and didn't result in any product modifications.
> > > Maybe the discussion has
> > > shown there there is indeed a lot of (commercially tangible)
> > > interest in an oscillator with a
> > > very good sine output. On the other hand, maybe the interest is
> more
> > > intellectual and
> > > doesn't incite people to actually part with their money and buy
> the
> > > new design. A poll
> > > could give us at least an indication. I suggest something like
> this
> > > >
> > > > "Do you want Doepfer to modify the sine-converter in the A-111
> to
> > > produce a purer
> > > sine wave The cost increase would be in the 5% - 10% range."
> > > >
> > > > York
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@ gmail.com>
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 3:39:52 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: Sine wave discussion
> > > >
> > > > Couldn't we just use a standard LPF for this
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 2, 2008, at 11:46 AM, James Husted wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The part of this circuit that does the conversion seems pretty
> > > > > straight ahead and looks simple enough to make as a stan-alone
> > > module.
> > > > > If one was needing to make sines and had a triangle VCO
> already
> > > (that
> > > > > made a decent Triangle wave) then a converter module would
> work
> > > fine -
> > > > > a bit esoteric for mass production though.
> > > > > -James
> > > > >
> > > > > PS - sorry to all for starting this thread with my Z3000
> post. I
> > > had
> > > > > my questions answered a long time ago..
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry, I missed the "will" part :-p
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had this link to the Aries VCO in one of the posts on this
> > > > > > (endless) thread. This is an
> > > > > > excellent tri-to-sine converter (I can't hear any additional
> > > > > > overtones). Better than the more
> > > > > > common 3080 converter and significantly better than your
> diode
> > > > > > converter. Aries claimed
> > > > > > to produce <1% THD.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.leinerme dia.net/aries/ AriesSchematics/
> AR-317s.gif
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure why you found adding a slightly filtered
> triangle
> > > > > > sounding wave useful when
> > > > > > there's already a triangle wave output. My suggestion is
> if your
> > > > > > customers are not
> > > > > > interested in a clean Sine output, use the panel real
> estate for
> > > > > > something more useful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, <yahoo@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You find my answers written inline.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best wishes
> > > > > > > Dieter Doepfer
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- --
> > > > > > > > Von: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > [mailto:Doepfer_ a100@ yahoogroups. com]Im Auftrag von
> > > laryn91
> > > > > > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> > > > > > > > An: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Betreff: 1 Re: Sine wave discussion
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And we will point out in the module information and
> user's
> > > > > > guide of
> > > > > > > A-110
> > > > > > > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more
> > > > > precisely
> > > > > > > "sine-like".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dieter,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out
> for
> > > the
> > > > > > A-111
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the
> future
> > > tense
> > > > > > from what
> > > > > > > I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine
> core.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about
> just a
> > > sine
> > > > > > with no
> > > > > > > *audible* overtones
> > > > > > > > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc.
> used
> > > to
> > > > > > make That
> > > > > > > would now
> > > > > > > > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> > > > > > > > triangle-to- sine converter design. ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but
> > > indeed
> > > > > > I never
> > > > > > > measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know
> the
> > > > > > circuitry of
> > > > > > > these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the
> JFET
> > > > > > circuit (these
> > > > > > > are the three triangle-to- sine converter principles I
> > > know). I
> > > > > > don't have
> > > > > > > the schematics of these VCOs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in
> the
> > > past.
> > > > > > But it
> > > > > > > took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since
> spring
> > > 1996)
> > > > > > until
> > > > > > > someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we
> can
> > > do.
> > > > > > Maybe we
> > > > > > > offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1
> > > that can
> > > > > > be used
> > > > > > > instead of the simple diode converter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~
> September
> > > > > > 2006) and Tim
> > > > > > > Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter
> based
> > > on the
> > > > > > JFET
> > > > > > > principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in
> > > 2006 but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that
> nobody was
> > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an
> > > addendum to
> > > > > > the A-111-1
> > > > > > > or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional
> > > charges
> > > > > > would be in
> > > > > > > the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted
> on a
> > > small
> > > > > > board).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best wishes
> > > > > > > Dieter Doepfer
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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