Additive synthesis Why, I'd NEVER heard of that! What a cool concept. You mean one can construct sounds by adding, rather than substracting Fascinating. A whole new world just opened up for me. Thank you! Thank you!




________________________________
From: laryn91 < caymus91@... >
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:49:15 AM
Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality


By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never designed sounds
using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component for these cool class
of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and dynamics
of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4 sine wave
oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web about Additive
Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic sounds with only
subtractive synthesis.

I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation source. The A-111
rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if you want more fine
and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!

A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the fundamental and no
overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but imprecision and
sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with- rounded-peaks, it should not mislead
customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A Sine means something
very specific:

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sine_wave

If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave out jack -
would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design

--- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@ ...> wrote:
>
> I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> M15 or ZO If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
>
> I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> maybe scientific applications instead Or are you just a
> perfectionist (It's OK if you are.)
>
> Monroe
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> > VCO that can produce a sine
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> > me this a very useful
> > feature.
> >
> > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> > expect everyone to
> > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> > their inability to hear
> > harmonic distortion.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@ >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > >
> > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > mono-synth
> > >
> > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> > mod
> > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > >
> > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> > > good to my ears.
> > > I am now happy.
> > >
> > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> > care
> > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> > > the work-arounds.
> > >
> > > Can't we all move on or play nice
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@ >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So what is the purpose of this Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > impossible to distinguish aurally And can't you filter out any
> > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> > sounds
> > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> > fundamental
> > > > > only).
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator. ..i think that should
> > also have
> > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> > (i use
> > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > > 1 group owner
> > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > waveform
> > > > > quality
> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> > peaks
> > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > you
> > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> > looking
> > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> > with no
> > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> > disapproval of
> > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> > Fourier),
> > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why ban people I found the debate lively at first,
> > although it
> > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I
> > think
> > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > York
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > waveform
> > > > > quality
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> > presented
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
> > Geist
> > > > > > > > 1 group owner
> > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > quality
> > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> > or yahoo
> > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> > even join
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> > the vco
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php t=2158
> > > > > > > > > < http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php t=2158
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> > better
> > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > sines
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.
> > You
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-
> > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > < http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> > notes, that's
> > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that
> > low
> > > > > notes
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> > peaks means
> > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> > is how
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> > using
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
> > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> > Release
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
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